Overcoming Challenges in Healthcare: Avish Bhama's Vision for Independent Practitioners

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to the uprising show and today I have a very special guest and a friend, Avish Bhamas, Avish, I want you to introduce yourself very quickly to everyone. Thanks for having me. I'm Avish from the founder of Clinic.

[00:00:35] Clinic is a platform that helps independent practitioners around the country market their practices and we also help them to build insurance and manage payer compliance. Our provider network serves people in a combination of addiction, mental health, psych,

[00:00:57] obesity and so a lot of chronic conditions but we started with addiction treatment. Interesting. We'll go into Clinic in a bit but let's go back in time and tell me about your upbringing

[00:01:11] what are you entrepreneurial as a kid and when was it you decided that I got to be an entrepreneur? Yeah, certainly. I was born in India. I moved to Michigan in 1987 when I was two years old

[00:01:31] and my dad at the time was getting a PhD and then my mom was kind of a sit home mom but both my parents ended up working in the automotive industry and Detroit Michigan or around the

[00:01:47] Mississippi Detroit area. And so I grew up around kind of figuring out that I don't want to do what they did simply because they were working all the time is for generation immigrants.

[00:02:09] I hated the idea of having a boss, I hated the idea of having someone else tell me what to do, when to do it, where to be how to work etc and so from a very early age I was almost like

[00:02:25] repelled by the idea of having to get a job and I started studying and reading, autobiographies by other entrepreneurs and and I got very interested in being an entrepreneur myself so

[00:02:41] I think one of the first entrepreneurial jobs I had was a cell cut cone nines. I don't know if you remember what cut cone as were but they were probably getting out and I was 11 12 years old and

[00:02:53] and then I ended up going into other adventures over time. Interesting and so what made you take the leap of faith into building your first company? Well to be honest I was very unemployable at the time like

[00:03:15] I had had jobs before that I just hated so I hated the idea of working for people and but my very first company was in college and I would try things and they wouldn't work out

[00:03:39] and I probably started a dozen I would call entrepreneurial projects because the first half dozen were really companies at the time but they were projects where I would you know you kickstart trying to start something from scratch you realize all that issues with it and

[00:03:58] and the first kind of major one that we really got traction on was the company called the Vorom which was a Bitcoin exchange they started in 2011 which we ran for about seven years and that was a company

[00:04:11] that we raised venture capital forward and we hired engineers for and we ended up building a Bitcoin exchange and we were one of the first institutional Bitcoin exchanges in the US and that was my first real lesson and everything that goes into kind of starting a startup

[00:04:37] and I would definitely say I made a lot of first-time founder mistakes on that one but it was an invaluable experience. So what happened to that company? We ended up scaling from zero to over 75,000 Bitcoin under management or the course of just a few

[00:05:00] years actually we grew very very quickly it was kind of the wild-lull west of crypto at this time we ended up hiring an engineering team in Palo Alto and it was kind of a marketplace business where

[00:05:18] where our first customers were a lot of the suppliers of crypto so mining companies and merchant merchants across the world actually and then also we had exchanges that we worked with and then

[00:05:37] we also had on the demand side of the market just institutional buyers of Bitcoin, Ethereum and other cryptocurrencies over time but we predominantly were in Bitcoin Ethereum we ended up growing that and then towards the end of 2016, 2017 we ended up spinning that company off to a

[00:06:01] Compactel Zapo in Palo Alto which is run by an entrepreneur called our named Wences Caseras and he was and still is one of the OGs of crypto is this Latin American Argentine entrepreneur who

[00:06:21] told me all about like why crypto is going to change Argentina which it has in many ways and so yeah it was a wild experience. Now to your next winter so after that you

[00:06:38] were part of another winchers Sonya.ai how did you stumble on your next winter from then and was there any gap between that one and this venture? Yeah so Sonya was so with the crypto company

[00:06:57] we ended up working after we sold in Sponaut that Bitcoin exchange we spent a couple years working on a smart contracting platform to do and we kicked around a bunch of different ideas on things like

[00:07:15] smart contracts we were thinking about doing a production market and those things just didn't work and so at this point I actually had a completely different idea that I wanted to pursue which was at the time like getting insurance for while running a Bitcoin exchange was really

[00:07:37] really hard problem and so we ended up deciding to I mean I spent a lot of my time working with like if you can imagine for a second if you have a Bitcoin exchange that has 75,000 Bitcoin

[00:07:54] of that you're managing there's a huge amount of security risk and so every day people would try to hack our website, our company emails etc and so and so we were constantly trying to figure out

[00:08:12] how to get insurance to cover some of this risk and it was a very very hard process to do and so I had this idea of like what would be required in order to really streamline the

[00:08:26] process of getting commercial insurance and so Sonya was kind of the initial idea for the venture was to build an agent that would help you streamline access to commercial insurance and and do so much more easily than it would be to have to deal with like a commercial

[00:08:50] insurance broker or agent that would go through all the traditional steps we struggled to get product market fit at Sonya in a lot of different ways so like the the primary reason I think

[00:09:09] that we we failed was because when we were initially starting Voram we started with a very small market at the time and we actually focused on the problems of like one set of people which were

[00:09:26] the supply side of that market that we're trying to figure out how to get liquidity and then we focus on the other side of the market which is the demand side of the market which is

[00:09:36] I'm figure out how to get access to the asset class whereas with Sonya it was I mean we approach the market incorrectly in my opinion we we approached it from a top down approach so instead of like

[00:09:50] trying to solve one small set of needs by a small kind of audience we said look how big the commercial insurance markets are this is Shilian's $1 dollars that we should get a small piece of

[00:10:03] this pie and that was the wrong way of approaching the market so we in my opinion we we struggle to get kind of any traction and for the little traction that we did get it just wasn't enough to keep the

[00:10:18] company going got it and so you had to sell that company off or shut it what happened to that one that company ended up getting Apple hired by Karta and so one of our angel investors was

[00:10:35] was a guy named Henry Ward who is the founder of CEO of Karta and and when we were kind of like in the midst of doing a mass layoff in March of 2020 for the COVID hit coincidentally it's also

[00:10:53] when all the commercial insurance brokers all their customers were going out of business and so all of a sudden our customers were struggling to and and so we were doing kind of a

[00:11:06] mass layoff and I called Henry and I was trying to find a soft landing for the team and Henry asked me hey what are you and your co-founders up to what have you come to work at Karta

[00:11:19] and so we ended up getting at Karta and I worked at Karta briefly. Okay and now to your most recent venture so how that happened afterwards what was the moment or insight that led to the creation of

[00:11:38] clinic? Yeah so I had a good friend that had struggled so backing up when I was working at Karta I mean no offense to Karta I really respected what they had built as a company but once again I just

[00:11:59] I felt like I was an entrepreneur looking for an idea and I was taking kind of a career break in between startups and so I ended up kind of starting to think through what areas I wanted

[00:12:20] to build something in and the first area that I started thinking about was healthcare and I remember at this time this is in 2020 I was kind of brainstorming with a founder friend of mine and

[00:12:34] and I was kind of brainstorming ideas and he said his name is Sebastian Sorano from Ripeo by the way and he said hey obviously you know all of the low hanging fruit for entrepreneurs

[00:12:50] is kind of taken now and so he said you either need to go after an industry where they hadn't fully adopted technology and figure out a way to get that industry to adopt technology and there's

[00:13:06] their surface area to go and get the laggards to kind of sign up for some some solutions or you need to have like a fundamentally like deep tech innovation where your wedge is it's just

[00:13:24] leaves and bounds better than anything that exists and so I started kind of exploring industries of like what is what industries have not adopted technology healthcare was obviously the first industry that I kind of was thinking through and I didn't know a thing about healthcare just to be

[00:13:49] clear so I I was kind of like brainstorming what to work on in healthcare and and a good friend of mine had had all sorts of issues for many years with with addiction and substance abuse and I ended

[00:14:09] up kind of helping him get into multiple different treatment centers over overtime we it was always a process of like calling 30 or 40 different practices or treatment centers figuring out where they were what insurance is they accepted if they had availability and it was just a big long

[00:14:31] drawn-out process to figure out how to get him access to addiction treatment and so I started initially thinking about this through the lens okay if I want to go and start something in healthcare because

[00:14:45] healthcare is one of those industries that has not fully adopted technology yet but that's really changing very fast and quickly because COVID it was an accelerant to getting payers and providers and patients and farm companies to adopt software very quickly at this time and I thought it was

[00:15:06] kind of like an interesting moment in healthcare where I was like hey right now is a really interesting and so kind of marrying that with the lens of okay I also want to figure out like how do I

[00:15:21] solve this friend's problem of like if you were to build an application and for us it was building a telehealth platform initially to help patients with addiction mental health and psychic access

[00:15:35] to providers kind of odd demand what would that look like and that was really how we we got started with clinic so what's the core problem that's can absolve today and how do you approach

[00:15:49] is approach it differently than the existing solutions so we started out as I mentioned we kind of like started out trying to build our own telehealth platform and we actually started out creating and I partnered with the psychiatrist named the Neil Arsani and we the initial

[00:16:09] premise was hey let's build a telehealth platform for addiction psychic mental health and and the initial kind of problem that we're trying to solve is hey we're going to have to build a platform out we're going to integrate an EHR, a prescrib patient portal practice management

[00:16:24] marketing software, billing software, care coordination software we have to glue all this together we end up raising a little bit of money and hiring some engineers and took about six months of time

[00:16:35] and cost $1 million to build just the initial platform out we started to market ourselves and we started to grow and and this kind of led it into the real problem that we ended up solving because

[00:16:49] as we started to grow I would book these Zoom calls with providers all over the country that we were trying to recruit to our platform and I remember this is towards the end of 2021 I would jump on

[00:17:03] with these like providers and a lot more birds out and they would they would say hey you know let me just interrupt you I'm not interested in joining another telehealth company but how do I

[00:17:15] do what you're doing for my own practice and I started to realize that there are a lot of these independent providers around the country that want to be in private practice they want to grow

[00:17:24] private practice they want the autonomy of working for themselves but they don't have the tools or the resources to raise money and hire engineers and go software integrations and hire marketing agency and hire care coordinators and a billing company it's a choir and bill for and manage payer

[00:17:40] compliance for you know a choir and bill patience to be able to launch and grow their own practice and that was the the fundamental problem that we kind of shifted to where I realized hey

[00:17:54] like starting a practice is really really hard what would it look like for us to build almost kind of like a practice in a box for independent practitioners to just make it easy for them to launch and

[00:18:09] grow and scale their own private practice and so we started initially with one of these folks that we met towards the end of 2021 we got him up and running on our platform where we ended up scaling

[00:18:22] him from one to three locations and one to six providers and grew from zero to over 200 thousand dollars a month in revenue on our platform within 12 months and then we kind of did that over and

[00:18:32] over and over again now we have over a hundred practices that we work with around the country and that was kind of the the first thing that we did and we are first initial market was

[00:18:45] people that were and where people that were actually starting suboxin clinics for opioid use disorder and then over time what we ended up doing was we ourselves decided hey you know what there's we were currently serving the segment of the market that are like established clinic owners

[00:19:05] that already have a private practice and want to grow and so they already have some revenue and they're now interested in growing and scaling but there's this other segments in the market

[00:19:16] which are like what you and I would refer to as the you know the SMB providers the solo practitioners that are just thinking about getting up and running from scratch and starting and and the issue

[00:19:29] there is those folks are not credentialed yet they don't even have the budget to to grow yet and so what we did there is we set up our own group and PI we got our own pair contracts we set

[00:19:41] up our own MSO and PC relationship and we decided to bring those folks in as independent contractors our group and we kind of do all of the software marketing, care coordination, building credentialing for them under our group and so that was kind of the

[00:20:00] second thing that we ended up launching in the last year or so. Good stick and you know a lot of a lot of where how healthcare is going and and this is this question always comes right like there's a shortage of providers and there is a lot

[00:20:18] of backlash in a way from providers like how can we be still remain independent of health insurance? It's because it's getting to the point where people are like it's not even worth it

[00:20:28] and this is why models like direct primary care etc are coming in the market where people are like I don't need to deal with insurance. I'll just do with our 300 patients they would pay me

[00:20:38] 100 bucks a month and that's how I build my practice. So in many ways it seems like the people who are coming to you or at least the problem that you currently solving these are the people

[00:20:52] who want to remain independent in a way that they still want to scale their build their practices either from the beginning or scaling from where they are and do you see like there is this

[00:21:06] wave kind of reigniting I feel like we went through this cycle in healthcare in last few years at least pre-COVID there was a lot of consolidation happening and if you ask a lot of providers

[00:21:17] pre-COVID they will tell like yeah the goal is to build a practice and then get acquired by a PE or venture capital or big group and that's kind of how it was going but if you ask now

[00:21:27] it would that's gone because PE and venture capital are kind of like forcing the providers who basically equating these groups to like a you only have 15 minutes to check this patient and then

[00:21:41] you have to move on next patient and that kind of the reality came into picture and where are you seeing with all the customers that you're spending what's the what's the notion right now

[00:21:52] from what's the pulse yeah so I will say that we kind of see both sides a lot of practitioners get burnt out working for big healthcare systems and they get burnt out dealing with the administrative burden of healthcare but on the flip side a lot of times

[00:22:15] you know insurance companies make it really really hard to operate as an independent practitioner and independent practitioners also don't have kind of all the marketing prowess or care coordination prowess or feeling prowess to be able to do things like a choir patients

[00:22:37] figure out how to build you know automated intake flows that you know e-commerce experts know how to stitch together and they also don't have the you know expertise to figure out like how to manage payer compliance how to properly do chart audits how to manage denials how to

[00:23:03] manage prior authorization and deal with the headache that is like figuring out how to get paid in healthcare when you when you think about and a lot of we see this happen a lot of providers say

[00:23:16] the hell with it I'm done with insurance and they'll say I'm just going to go and build my own practice and I'll I'll go and focus on the cash payment market well at the end of the cash payment market

[00:23:27] is still super small relative to you know the overall healthcare market like most people that want healthcare want to pay for it with insurance and so and so there is kind of that trade off

[00:23:41] what what I think is the balance and it's a hard balance to strike is and it's also similar to why a lot of providers you know get into medicine which is providers get into medicine to a combination of health patients but they also want to build financially free

[00:24:05] lives that where they have autonomy to be able to build a career and see their family and spend time doing the things that they want to do in addition to helping patients and making a meaningful impact

[00:24:19] in the world and you can't do that when your burnt out is a provider when you are working for a hospital system that is you know sucking the soul out of you so I hope we see this on a

[00:24:36] data basis where people come to us and they say I'm just sick of working for other people I want to build my own practice and then kind of going to the other end of the spectrum here there's a

[00:24:47] lot of challenges in building your own private practice and and so from a patient's perspective you know you almost want to get good quality healthcare that's affordable that accepts your insurance from providers that actually care about their craft and care about you as a patient

[00:25:10] and that's it's just a challenging puzzle to solve for because a lot of the best independent practitioners are like I'm not doing with insurance and or they'll go through a hospital system in hospital systems are really hard to navigate sometimes so it's hard puzzle I personally have

[00:25:28] not figured out how to solve for it but where we are the way that we kind of have started out is we've kind of picked a small kind of group of practices to work with where we say look we're going to

[00:25:45] figure out how to take overall of the administrative burden of running your your clinic and helping you scale and then kind of providing that access to patients and helping you reach them online so

[00:26:01] in many ways I want to just double click for people who are listening who are going to listen to this episode is in many ways clinic is is a pathway to let's say freedom to these providers who

[00:26:16] are probably burnt out or stuck in the places where they don't want to be even with good intentions and this is their kind of a place where they get the support they need to get their practices running

[00:26:31] and and scaling so very big problem to solve obviously but what are the big challenges there at the moment that you're seeing in your company or your business? Well I mean there's challenges

[00:26:50] that we deal with every day but from I was going to say one more thing on the last point we have found that if you were to be a provider and I taught every day I taught to providers

[00:27:08] all day every day and we get a sense of like what their big challenges are and they have a lot of challenges right so we're kind of in the business of figuring out how do we solve their challenges

[00:27:20] and prioritizing like what are the most critical challenges and how do we pick those things up? So one thing that I've learned is like if you know I try to put myself in their shoes and

[00:27:35] if I was a provider and I was interested in starting my own practice because I'm burnt out working for other people I try to think through who is the sidekick I want a partner with that could help

[00:27:47] me accomplish those things and how do I partner with them in a way where I can give them really really important critical things so that I could focus on the things that I went to school

[00:28:04] for and I got really excited about healthcare for to be out with and so for us we start with how do we help practitioners get discovered how do we help them grow and how do we help them scale

[00:28:19] and reach patients? We also start with how do we properly onboard help them onboard patients do verification of benefits checks for patients go through the intake process get booked without patients getting frustrated and dropping off because

[00:28:41] we all know that like intake is a huge problem and then it kind of starts there with the front end and then we move our way into kind of the the billing RSM and pair compliance side because

[00:28:57] we also know that one of the big really frustrating places for a lot of providers is getting paid and a lot of times providers struggle with this because they either get denials or they don't know why they're getting denials or they have chart audits or they have

[00:29:17] clawbacks or they have to deal with the administrative burden of fighting denials and providing evidence that they did in fact appropriately market and acquire a patient due verification of benefit check and and you know document there they're visit and that's a that's a whole area

[00:29:39] that we've kind of started to invest time into and I would say you know for us solving those three areas which is like marketing intake and fair compliance are kind of where we spend the

[00:29:52] majority of our time. Great and of course you partially answered the challenges are obviously based on the challenges of providers that's how you're prioritizing things what is that the number one thing that's sitting on your page right now that you feel like you're that's keeping you up.

[00:30:09] Yeah I mean for us like internally at the company we you know we have and this is true with any organization like when you grow to a point where you have multiple initiatives and you have to

[00:30:26] get everyone on the same page and moving in the right direction like like first of all managing and running I think a multi-sided digital health company or marketplace is a really really hard problem because you are working on supply side demand side you have to be very skilled

[00:30:46] pilot in the sense that you have to figure out at what point do you work on supply side problems demand side problems and those are two different groups that you have to kind of solve problems for

[00:30:57] and so internally at the org when we're thinking about this like there's that saying in in crew like when you're growing about if you get everyone growing at the same cadence all in synchronity with one another you end up moving much quicker than the folks that are growing

[00:31:22] chaoticly in all different directions where you end up kind of treading water and and that I would say is the biggest challenge that we deal with you know internally where I am

[00:31:36] always trying to figure out how to get our team on the same page moving in the right direction and and so you know this happens and it's never a perfect you know it's not like a perfect science there's an artist but there's times when things get more chaotic

[00:31:54] and you end up having to kind of get your bearings a little bit for you start figuring out what you're doing too yeah so not only keep the main thing main but also keeping the main thing

[00:32:08] main for everyone that's kind of lit is and oftentimes the you you almost have to figure out like sometimes the main thing you because we're a multi-sided network we're dealing with both providers

[00:32:26] and patients the problem is that the main thing is not always going to be the main thing full all the time so it's not not like building a point solution and Parker Conrad actually has

[00:32:42] a whole thesis on what he refers to as compound startups where you're doing like multiple things you're stitching them together and so for us it's like doing software setup and marketing and care coordination and billing and credentialing and stitching all of that together in a comprehensive way

[00:32:59] fundamentally is very valuable but it's also very very challenging because the main thing one day might be software integrations and next day might be marketing automation and you kind of have to like find a balance between those two things but this this to me is also

[00:33:18] one of the reasons why I believe like you know it's the antithesis of what a point solution is where you build something that gets commoditized you kind of want to build something that has

[00:33:29] some defensive ability to it which which is always going to be challenging. Would you say like compared to other industries that you're worth in healthcare is more complex and it gave you that moment like this is crazy. Not necessarily I think you know the advantage of

[00:33:55] building in a simple industry I'll use like e-commerce as an example is you know it's that the problem set is much more straightforward and it's a it's a large market but the disadvantage is the barrier to entry is actually much lower and so if you are building an

[00:34:21] org that and you're trying to solve problems in the space the defensive ability is actually much harder so it's easier to build something and get it to market and maybe get working but it's harder to actually get something to scale because there's a zillion competitors

[00:34:41] that come in and and and and so I historically have always gravitated towards harder industries that have you know they're regulated marketplaces and you know in my opinion it's inverse or

[00:35:03] it's inverted in the sense that it's harder to get up and running it's harder to go through all the regulatory hoops and to figure out the marketplace dynamics and to get the initial kind of traction

[00:35:14] but it's easier to get to scale once you figure out those you know first few steps and so to me it's just what what's the set of problems you want to start with and how you

[00:35:29] make the initial kind of so set of solutions I should say because once you can do that now you can figure out how to get to scale much easier then if you had the reverse.

[00:35:45] Makes sense and a you currently fundraising what and also looking at where do you see clinic in five years let's say? We are not currently fundraising we have raised a seed round

[00:36:05] in five years I kind of like the way I view my ambition for clinic is we build a practice in a box for independent practitioners that want to launch market grow their practice we help them

[00:36:23] with things like marketing treatment, billing insurance and managing their payer compliance all the biggest headaches in healthcare we're helping these folks with and I want to kind of be able to build this platform for providers that are serving patients with chronic conditions so we started

[00:36:42] with addiction we're going into depression and obesity and overtime I want to be able to add provider network that can serve things that go beyond these first initial conditions that we started with whether it be chronic pain or chronic disease or other areas that

[00:37:06] you know we we ended up building it so these things always take longer than you anticipate but I think over the first few years of the business we built the foundation to be able to do that so

[00:37:20] within five years I kind of see us just deepening the platform bringing on more providers being on more patients building out more of the software sweet to be able to connect these two sides and then we may end up also kind of coming up with an interesting analytics

[00:37:42] layer that's valuable for you know payers or former companies or you know other nodes in the healthcare ecosystem interesting really interesting and you know more of a personal question to you know computer chat here two questions actually first is being a three X three times founder

[00:38:04] or entrepreneur could you share your number one advice for anyone looking to jump into building their own companies my number one advice it probably my number one piece of advice probably changes on

[00:38:21] their basis but but I will reiterate some advice that Henry Ward once told me when I worked at Carda and this advice was most founders are working on getting their last 100 customers and they're making the mistake of trying to get their last 100 customers rather than their first 100 customers

[00:38:50] and what he meant by that was you know if you're starting a social network you is a founder as an example you know you might come into the market and thinking hey how

[00:39:04] we build a social network for a billion people how do we make the super scalable and how do we you know get this up and running and off the ground so that we can connect all of these people

[00:39:14] over the world well that's not what you know the most successful social network data which is they said hey let's go and figure out our first 100 users oh it happens to be how do we get the students

[00:39:32] at Harvard University to figure out who the other students at Harvard University are by putting together an application for them to be able to look people up at Harvard and once you solve that problem for your first 100 users you could then scale it to your next 100 users and

[00:39:49] your next 100 users and eventually get 2000 and then 10,000 minutes on and so forth so I think the advice to like sum it up is focus on your first 100 users solve problems for your first

[00:40:03] 100 users figure out a way to get those folks on board before you try to figure out how to take over the world create advice well thanks for your time I will ask one fun question that I like to conclude

[00:40:21] to show it and this is where I want to know from you anything that you would like to share of course that nobody in your professional circles know and this is your chance to tell them so what

[00:40:36] would be that thing could be anything that you want to share and this is your shop in what vein anything that you like to share but nobody in your professional circles knows

[00:40:50] and this is your medium to tell them oh is it about clinic not necessarily could be about your personal life about you what's here I'm stumped look I have gotten people and some

[00:41:12] deadlines have gotten answers like well you know I have worked at Hooters and I have musical instruments from 135 countries and I play all of them things like anything people are still

[00:41:26] fun fact about me yes fun fact yeah fun fact I finally enough I started my career as a professional poker player so I all throughout college and in after college I played probably I don't know

[00:41:46] 50 to 60 hours of poker per week oh all third college and after college and that was amongst how I got my entrepreneurial career started so but I met a lot of interesting people at the

[00:42:01] poker table so it I met hedge fund managers and tech entrepreneurs and a lot of interesting people this is way back in the early 2000s very interesting I do have one last question for you because

[00:42:19] this is you've been into so many things how much one should have figured out before taking a leap into building their own business what what what's your take on that how much should you have figured

[00:42:36] out I mean I I think you don't necessarily need to have everything figured out but you need to be willing to go through the idea maze and the idea maze is defined as you know critics and has a great

[00:42:54] blog post about the idea maze school Chris sticks an idea maze and it's early around like if you're gonna you know when you're a younger entrepreneur you end up kind of having this boundless amount

[00:43:10] of energy and you go and you want to you know solve all the problems and go in all the directions and get a lot done and as you get older you kind of realize how many unforced errors you made

[00:43:25] and how painful these mistakes are because it really you know takes a long time to build company and when you end up spending years going in the wrong direction you're like man that sucked and so

[00:43:43] I think as you get older for me at least it's not that you become more conservative but you start to really think through like all of the different potential outcomes of what what happened

[00:43:59] if you go down a path and you go through what is referred to as the idea maze so you might want to like explore it yourself or talk to other founders that have tried that idea before and

[00:44:10] fake and it is a puzzle and it is a map that you're kind of trying to figure out a plot and so it's not necessarily like you don't necessarily need to have it all figured out a front but you need

[00:44:20] to be committed to actually going through the idea maze and whatever you do and this ends up saving you a lot of time down the road and also it ends up hopefully steering you in the right direction

[00:44:33] and because there's you know an infinite amount of directions you can go into. Great well thank you I wish that was very helpful especially the last point that you mentioned and we'll suddenly give a link to idea maze when we publish this episode where can people find

[00:44:53] you if you want to if they want to hit you up. Twitter at Avishbama. LinkedIn Avishbama. Great and clinics.com that's the website for their business and thank you Avish once again

[00:45:16] thanks for coming on the part much appreciated it's clinic with a K dot com clinic with a K absolutely all right thanks for making friends