Transforming Healthcare: Insights from Kat Ketter and Frederik Mueller

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to The Uprising Show, and today I have two very experienced and fascinating guests, especially in the world of healthcare and healthcare operations. So I would like to immediately welcome Kat Ketter, Hi Kat Ket. And Frederik Mueller, hello!

[00:00:38] And let's jump us directly to a little bit about your intro by yourself, Kat Ketter, let's start with you. So thanks for having me on Kat Ketter. I'm the State Vice President of the Ministry of Emergency and the Secretary of Health Plan.

[00:00:56] So we are managed to care organization. We serve about 400,000 members in Philadelphia and New Jersey, and I'm just grateful to be here and thinking about the connections today. Thanks, Kat Ketter. Frederik.

[00:01:13] Hey, be back. Thank you for having me today. My name is Frederik Mueller. I am the co-founder and CEO of Third Way Health. We provide healthcare operations as a service, leveraging people, strong processes and technology to support providers and pairs in improving

[00:01:34] member experience and access and all sorts of other operational challenges. Great, welcome Frederik. So I like to start by first asking obvious, but very interesting question to me because I'm always curious how people end up where they are.

[00:01:51] So could you each share a pivotal moment in from your life, from your career, that how you ended up being in healthcare? Kat Ketter, you want to pick this up first? Yes, sure. So, you know, I knew I wanted to be in healthcare since I was about six.

[00:02:11] I had my perspective and I told my mom some day I want to study disease and all of her people. I don't know why I picked that one. I was only part of it, but I did.

[00:02:20] But I didn't really know how I would have a trajectory until later in life. So, you know, as a young, 24 year old, I had a son. My son suffered a traumatic injury at three months of age. She was not expected to survive and he did survive today.

[00:02:38] He's 18 in his graduating high school, but you know, it was my experience with healthcare in the acute care side. The doctors and nurses and social workers that helped us through that experience.

[00:02:50] And I always said to my higher power, if you get us through this and you spare my baby, I will spend the rest of my life giving back to other people. And that's essentially why I got in the healthcare.

[00:03:01] And why I stayed because a lot of times people asked me, I've been doing this for 27 years. So, I said, how are you still inspired to come in the world every day?

[00:03:10] I think my age and I think about caring families like ours and his, and that's why I stay in Spire. Well, thank you. Thanks for sharing. Frederick? Yeah. This is a great story, Kat, by the way, also, and that is really inspirational.

[00:03:34] I think my pivotal moment for healthcare, funny enough, was in a basement in Brussels, Belgium, because I got into healthcare kind of by accident. I used to work at a company called the Advisory Board, which was a big healthcare consulting firm.

[00:03:54] And I pretty much took the job because my friend of mine said, hey, they want someone that is working with hospital executives all over Europe.

[00:04:05] And I'm from Germany originally and this said you want to kind of travel across Europe and meet health executives and do some working sessions. And that kind of similar your age cap when you're in your, in your story.

[00:04:19] And 24 that seemed like a really fun opportunity. I hadn't had a plan to be in healthcare. But the more we actually started to work with organizations that were grappling with this transition from people's service to value-based care,

[00:04:37] the more fascinated I became because I think that truly provider organizations that go through this challenge are super unique. And it's you're rebuilding the plane while flying in, right? You're retooling lots of incentives that have been there for a decade and even longer.

[00:04:58] And this culminated in a working session with CIO as European CIOs and Brussels. And I think the, the line that always sticks with me is that that 20 years ago IT in hospitals was was the basement, right?

[00:05:15] It was like data storage and now we're talking about in this value-based care world. And I think the young needs to go and talk to their, their position and the other executives on how to leverage data to really achieve the outcomes.

[00:05:30] And I think there was one guy there who said, look, I, I started in the basement, you know, now I'm here like metaphorically.

[00:05:38] It's, it, it always stuck with me. I can't think of any other industry where you've had that type of a paradigm shift and I just think the being in on the ground and then also being able to partake in that overall shift is what really had me form of an healthcare.

[00:05:58] Well, thank you. I mean yours is more of, you know, you saw people who were on that path and we're ahead of you that kind of a nice way to gauge off it.

[00:06:10] Mine is actually more of how cats stories it's like, I was actually the same start of that I was telling you that we brought from Germany to New York.

[00:06:20] I was actually in Berlin ended up in hospital for 24 days and it started with a boil on my shoulder and I was late to get to the doctor. And then I thought that this is all happened because I couldn't get the appointment.

[00:06:34] And when I was in the hospital, I just saw a job listing which was about a tele-dermatology app. And I was like, maybe I would not have spent the time in the hospital if I ever used something like this.

[00:06:46] So I was sold on the app. I co-limiled the founders convinced them to meet me. There was no position they created this position for me and then I ended up joining them and then after that, you know, spend five years with them brought them from Germany to New York.

[00:07:02] And since then I've been in healthcare and my lesson was almost like this that, you know, I really believe that technology and you know everything the processes the people in healthcare.

[00:07:16] There is so much optimism I have. I see when people say the optimism there's a notion that some see it like very ignoring the problems.

[00:07:27] I see the brighter side so this is how I decided to be in healthcare and since then I've been healthcare. So that's my story a little bit how I ended up in healthcare.

[00:07:38] All right, so what aspect of healthcare are you most passionate about? And how does it influence your work life today?

[00:07:51] So great question. I think for me, I'm most passionate about health equity. So serving our vulnerable populations making sure that there are not gaps in care that we can kind of close on herself.

[00:08:03] And I think, you know, it's meeting people where we are so during COVID people got used to telehealth and telephonic services and that's wonderful.

[00:08:13] What we're hearing from members and patients is they want to see back face to face. They want to be able to actually walk into physical space and meet the member relationship with parametra and so I think, you know, my passion is making sure that we're meeting people where they are and not just the members or patients that we're serving but also our employees.

[00:08:34] So a lot of times our employees, especially in the contact centers and entry level positions, they're encountering the same issues that members and patients are facing. So housing insecurity, food insecurity, domestic violence issues.

[00:08:47] So it's also a question of how do we close that gap and how do we, you know, to get a top tier member member, you know, we have to start with them and solve the problem with them.

[00:09:03] So my model is really the power of one. So we focus on one patient at one time who then has one family and then we affect one neighborhood and then we affect one community, one state city by city.

[00:09:15] And if we focus on that power of one, we really can close those disparities in healthcare.

[00:09:21] Wow, that's very powerful. Thanks for sharing and also to mention that we on the home care side, the company where I am as a city that the Chief Growth Officer, we actually work with clients from Jefferson plant in our in Pennsylvania.

[00:09:38] So that's a we know that you know when we have called for you know the customer service on our end to get information, it has been much easier, comparatively to other plants without giving them. But I completely understand what you're explaining and totally makes sense.

[00:09:59] Fedrick, what's what is the thing that you are passionate about and how does it influence your work today? Yeah, that's a great question. So I am really passionate about the people in healthcare.

[00:10:17] I think similarly and for me and I say people because we're sort of at this intersection of specifically on the practice side of making healthcare more accessible and a better experience for patients, because we take over a lot of from office functions and try to eliminate wait times and close you know get patients what they need in the manner that they want in the fastest and most effective way possible.

[00:10:46] But we also work a lot with the care teams on the receiving end on our client side because we're sort of stepping to become the middleman and we also work a lot with.

[00:10:56] And so the care teams on the on the payer side specifically care teams that questions and call provider services lines or needs of check on eligibility. So and we support care teams, we support patients, we support provider lines for health plans and I think we want to make sure that we are finding the right balance for each of these interested parties serving the patient so that they get what they need.

[00:11:25] Right, and and this is really hard because you want to be the middleman and you want to make it easy for the patient of an answer but you need to effectively connect them with their care teams where it is appropriate and you need to find the right balance for the care teams to get the information when and how they need it.

[00:11:43] And so at the end game we spent a lot of time fine tuning experimenting ways where your value had in middleman and you know health care is full of middlemen and a lot of them arguably don't add a lot of value and.

[00:11:58] You know that is I would say a large part of what we do is try to see how do we become this this value added middleman and support the people in doing the things that.

[00:12:09] They like the most including our own teams right no one likes to do redundant administrative things so can we automate them where possible so that we can enhance the human interaction.

[00:12:20] Between anyone that we get the chance to speak with so that's something that really is isn't the core what we're doing and what gets me going and but I would like to you present we figure this out right is constant work in progress.

[00:12:34] Yeah, it's I do think that and this is maybe just my personal behavior they got to think I have come a full circle in my career that.

[00:12:45] Initially when I started I was like tech is the saving grace like it will help us and then I have come to this realization over time that tech is going to be there yes sure but tech is going to be the tool for the people.

[00:12:59] And once and there were like I've come this full circle obviously through like there are small things that happens right every time technology comes it's valuable but also has limitation of.

[00:13:11] Can it serve all the types of populations like if you will in app does it like people over 70 can use it or not and then there's natural drop off so that's why you need to meet them and something.

[00:13:24] And that's not possible with just with every technology so I have come to this conclusion that people is actually number what then comes tech and that's how we make health care better and.

[00:13:42] I always wonder what you guys think about that what's your thought how do you view this makes us tech and people the balance is there one better than another what's your view on that.

[00:13:53] I mean for me I think the great analogy is it's hybrid so hybrid is high touch and high tech and for us in a contact center environment figuring out when we can use a chat thought to.

[00:14:07] And then when does that conversation need to come to a live customer service agent that can really you know do first call resolution. That's kind of where we said that our person is mixed with high touch and my tab. Nicely put I like that fedric.

[00:14:28] Yeah, I agree I think to flesh the zout even more I think we we.

[00:14:38] I'm I started in secure communications and so for long time I thought that you we could solve the majority of problems and health care we've just got more patients to to message and so to call and I think.

[00:14:53] You know the reality is I don't actually don't like to use a lot of these chat thoughts because I feel that.

[00:14:59] Oftentimes in in out of industry examples you don't it really get what you need and I so I think it's it's about finding that interaction and and I would say we look at this in.

[00:15:12] In from two angles for one as we really invest a lot in supporting our own team members so specifically a lot of data aggregation right.

[00:15:22] When a member calls so many times where are patients there's more than one thing that's going on right there might be calling for a question authorization but hey they haven't upcoming care gap right that we could address or they there's anything else that's outstanding and so.

[00:15:38] How do you the hardest part is in the back ground how do you orchestrate the data so that the person in front of you can leverage.

[00:15:46] The information can derive value from technology and I think that's that's super hard because just even having data alone doesn't do it as long you need to make sure that it's accessible.

[00:15:57] And that your your your end users which for us are our agents really have to have the data their fingertips and then I likewise on this you know on the patient side of course.

[00:16:07] How do you get folks that help that they want in the format and the modality that they want so. I I but I think health gives a people game cat for your point right it's high high tech high high top. Hey I couldn't we more in that.

[00:16:25] Cool and. So Catherine for you could you describe how Jefferson held approaches member experience out you know what initiatives have you found most affected. Yes a great question and then you know I love hearing when people say they've received great customer service because a lot of times.

[00:16:49] And then the members will leave for a larger well known name but then they come back for the service that we're providing so we really focus on high touch member centric service for using their preferred name we know what's their preferred method of communication.

[00:17:03] We know what hours they might like a call back from us so it's really that high touch service and then also some of the things like the talk about use predict the bandwidth it kind of identify.

[00:17:15] And we have a lot of people who are members who's most at risk based off of claims data and quality data but also that personalized outreach going and we actually go door to door we have community business organizations that we contract with that.

[00:17:29] And so we're in say hey we've had a hard time reaching you and we're worried about your health care and we're just here to help so you know the other thing that people really know us for is that we have the local touch in the community.

[00:17:41] So we're out at all the community events we're out at laundry mats but the day goes grocery stores where ever the member is we're going to them I think we've now had an outdated.

[00:17:53] Method you know in healthcare where we say the members needs to come to us and they should just call us when they need us but for us it's really about going to where the members are close those gaps to see like what does the household look like.

[00:18:06] You know if the members coming in you know some of Fredericks points about providers they're coming in the primary care office and they're dressing well they're presenting their best self but at home things are not exactly another presenting it to us when the office they're out in the prayer.

[00:18:21] All of our food and nutritious foods and they might live in a food desert so that's really where our strategies for.

[00:18:30] Centralized outreach that's high touch that's personalized and friendly and you know they're telling us hey I'm being evicted tomorrow or I don't know where to go to get help with.

[00:18:41] Electrical bills or water bills so you know that's what really is helping us engage our members in the community and then taking that comprehensive. I'm going to be a part of the process of treating them so I think you know as far as the initiatives it's really just.

[00:18:55] In the meeting gratitude we have and one thing that we've ourselves on using the right thing for our members before it's required by right with your agencies like.

[00:19:04] Department of Human Services or the Centers for Medicaid and Medicare so we're thinking about how do we care for that person first and then worry about the money later. And actually a test that because we had a client who came to us and supposedly.

[00:19:25] We we weren't partner with Jefferson and then once we started doing it we I think we got the authorization from Jefferson like within 24 to 48 hours I remember that.

[00:19:37] And then we initiated the partnership to like we will open the area that's how that worked out and then and as you mentioned it. I see how you are saying because that's kind of actually experience it from the home care providers side with your plan so.

[00:19:54] Yeah, good to do so that because again we tried something with other plans and we were kind of told no like you have to go through credentialing and all that stuff so it's a different thing.

[00:20:05] But I think one thing I've seen and including the things that you mentioned and then a few other good plans also trying to do this is more of community outreach in terms of like you're saying it's now outreach versus.

[00:20:21] Members waiting for members to come I think that has flipped that is not entirely I would say it's still happening but I think that's the biggest mind this mindset shift happening and and it's much needed this is how it is right right now I think that's the only way we need to understand people first and then go.

[00:20:41] In serving them effectively that's kind of what it is so great great share thank you fedric for you specifically from a BPO perspective right so how does company like yours third we held ensure that member experience remains a priority in your operations.

[00:21:01] Yeah, it's a great question and obviously we we only cover a portion of the spectrum and and can't by the way it's funny you mentioned.

[00:21:11] The laundry shop outreach I was connected with the folks at fabric health which I think you guys are partnering with and that's it's such cool way to see the.

[00:21:23] The way that outreach has evolved and there's they start up that are doing the same thing in barbershops right and then it's really cool to.

[00:21:33] To to see sort of the ecosystem evolving but obviously what we control on specifically is much more in the context out when the member or provider or someone from their care team.

[00:21:46] I think that's what we call this is specifically reaching out for a question of when there's a specific need to reach out to them and I'd say generally speaking the core of what we do is based on people processes and technology right.

[00:22:02] I believe that health care is a discipline between humans and obviously and we provide operations as a service and so people are at the core of what we do and for us that means.

[00:22:18] There's a notion for a lot of BPO organizations that have not the best training really high turnover and we're trying to do this very differently we pay well above the market.

[00:22:32] I think that's a lot of people who are doing this very well above benefits for our team members we give them all sorts of perks and benefits and investment training and ongoing development.

[00:22:42] I think that there's a lot of human capital that we get to build with our partners and having a great member experience, a great provider experience.

[00:22:52] I think that's a lot of things that we have to do with the process of having someone that likes where they are and feels well taking care of and has a motivation to stay there and.

[00:23:02] I think that's a lot of things that we have to do with the process of how we try to impact everyone's experience that that we interact with.

[00:23:08] People is only one of the three legs of the stool, the second one for us is processes and so that means both in terms of how we train the obsessed with process and documentation and training and quality and quality assurance and it's really those are the guiding foundations that help someone also reach their full potential.

[00:23:30] And then of course the last part I kind of mentioned on this is technology so how do we use things like jen AI to support our agents and give them recommendations how do we give them the data that they have a 360 degree view of who they're talking to.

[00:23:46] We flag to them if there's any sort of open gap and for us it's really those three things coming coming together and and ultimately creating a really good member experience really good patient experience or really good provider experience as well because that's an important constituent group we talk to.

[00:24:04] And I mean again, I know about your company a bit so. I'm coming from the you know this notion like how you know most of the BPO's have this bad rep that.

[00:24:19] Quality is missing this is why this is like this is the most general notion right and you probably fight this all the time this notion of this like how do you service better and of course because the members are clients are you know the your clients members those are not your direct members so there is a little bit of that.

[00:24:38] What would you say like how how how are you fighting that notion like how do you I guess.

[00:24:44] You know get give this confidence to your clients that you know not we're not like everybody else right like how do you like processes great but how do you showcase that you are really up to the mark with those processes. Yeah, so that's a really good question.

[00:25:04] I would look at this from a few different angles over over half of our clients have never worked with the next turn of end of before and so a lot those are actually my most favorite conversations because it's organizations that have said for a really long time look.

[00:25:23] I will be better off managing this in that process in house because it allows me to deliver that a better quality and a better outcome and.

[00:25:32] What we try to do in order to give folks the confidence that that our approach works I think one is it starts with the general team. Being very much up to speak with what's happening in the market right like we don't want to just be a.

[00:25:47] Sort of passive partner that says what you need to do we want to try to stay ahead of. Regulations of trends of what we're hearing and be a sort of a proactive partner in helping our our clients actually transform the level of their operations.

[00:26:03] For us that helps because everything we do is healthcare in terms of security in terms of certifications in terms of every sort of our process on how we actually learn we my co-founder comes from the Fortune 100.

[00:26:16] Global business services space where you build shared service centers and 17 countries and so we're trying to take a page out of the Fortune 100 playbook in terms of rigor of processes and training that typically hasn't trickle down to a lot of the clients that that we've spoken to, especially on the provider space.

[00:26:36] So I think you know we're still younger organization so there's there's no question about that we're still have a lot of our way to go but in general it's been just our focus on the industry our focus on people and then.

[00:26:51] Just quite frankly being a a flexible partner I mean we don't we will tell you what we know what we don't know and I think we have a very good path of of showing how we can learn things we don't know that has also really helped us specifically when organizing when it's about building trust with someone that you feel comfortable putting the keys in their hands.

[00:27:13] Nice so in my way of rephrasing it so really kind of like you're bringing the. Accentures and McKinsey's of the world that processes to your arc and then keeping up with that quality and making sure that's showcase. Would that be right, statement? Yeah.

[00:27:35] Okay fantastic cool now speaking of technology both mentioned a little bit we touched upon it. Data is a big part we're looking at all these things when members calling what information we have at hand and so.

[00:27:52] What ways do you see the tech playing a role in delivering delightful member experience at scale.

[00:28:01] I know keeping in mind that how do we ensure there's quality because you know I've you know I've had a whole career before this ingested tech side of it generally excited of it and I tell you like.

[00:28:14] I think that's a lot of things are not well thought it becomes a problem of just clicks and you know too much clicks and then too much data is everywhere.

[00:28:23] And at the end it's just the quality is missed information is out over and there's a whole mess out of it so there's a whole part of that. You know, how do you think about it in a.

[00:28:35] In a very structured way to put simply so how do you think about it. Catherine maybe you can chime in first. I mean, I think our.

[00:28:45] Our position on this value of a volume so you know a lot of times people say well how do you really strategize I mean you don't need a thousand different apps a thousand different.

[00:28:58] Partners but you need the right mix of technology you need the right mix of partnerships so. You know for us we want our members to be able to communicate with us through a number of different avenues.

[00:29:08] Text and chat email the phones face to face, but we also struggle I think all health plans help providers struggle with. What's the right.

[00:29:19] And we're really getting the most bang for my vodka I think what we struggle with a lot is the budgets you know coming out of COVID most.

[00:29:28] Postural systems are in huge deficits million dollar deficits and you know there's not a lot of money that's left at the end of the day to put back into new text so for us it's really.

[00:29:39] What's the right mix for us it's knowing remembers you know again we're serving. And we're not saying hello and come population not a commercial population that has extra money to spend you know sometimes our population is saying I either could afford a. Or I could afford. Or both.

[00:29:57] I think okay let's just have them help help on telehealth but their connection might be for they might have low bandwidth they might be in an extreme rural area so you know those types of things are things I think we need to think about.

[00:30:12] We get that high level experience we do need a mix we need a mix of predictive analytics of different platforms telehealth and member engagement platforms so I think what we try and do is just analyze the patterns of.

[00:30:27] And that's the first thing we're going to do is just to find out how to use our social information or more at a pace to face events we use QR codes and we survey them and say hey.

[00:30:34] How does you find out about this event normally it's not mailers or text messages they say it's word of mouth or I heard it through your dialogue campaign so.

[00:30:45] And I think that's the first thing we can do is to find out how to use our social information and the dialogue campaign that's going to be fairly low cost and I have this app that's going to be fairly high cost well.

[00:30:52] You know in the world where I live in present day post pandemic I'm looking at all the options for my members but I think the other pieces that we have to anticipate the future for me so.

[00:31:03] And making sense of BPR initiatives a lot of times health systems health plans were very rigid in the way that we think so it's nice to have a BPO come in that can find.

[00:31:14] Outside perspective and say hey this is the way that we've seen it done with other organizations we think this is the way that we work for you so that's really kind of my standpoint might be a point on. Great. Fredrick your point of view on this.

[00:31:31] This is a really interesting time with technology because it really feels like we're in this transition period specifically with artificial intelligence obviously in the contact center space. Everyone talks about it.

[00:31:51] But I think what we're seeing is that and and can I mention this right like high high and high touch high technology. I think it's I think it's about like finding a good balance between the two because what we see in health care is that.

[00:32:13] A lot of the underlying data that is needed to provide a holistic experience to understand the patient is not connected at all and so there's no point in using any type of AI if it's just.

[00:32:29] A a a way of automating the low value interactions and so I think there's we're really at an industry going to have to find a way to thoughtfully compare like leverage automation to bring the best out of in the people right so that.

[00:32:48] The things that are best handled by agents by patients by care teams that they're the most important to do that.

[00:32:57] So we live this on a day to day basis because we talk to many organizations who try to work for us and and be an AI vendor and we haven't seen that any of them can at this point really fulfill all of the ongoing changes and needs and and escalations that are that that.

[00:33:18] And so I think we so my view on technology is kind of cautious it's there's a lot of hype right now.

[00:33:30] But it's really we can't lose sight of actually who are audiences right is that patient specifically if they're in managed care specifically if they're a from an immigrant background right it's like we're dealing with someone that is is is really need to a accurate concrete answer to their issue and I feel that.

[00:33:51] We sort of have to manage that that that tension to continuously do right by our members have financial pressures and then not give into what what seems like you know.

[00:34:04] Technology being the the the wherewithal for all problems because I really don't think that's that's where the future is. Okay, so cautious but optimistic in that way.

[00:34:16] And hopefully all these systems will connect that's that's the story we've been hearing and healthcare for so long and one day one day we'll have universal systems.

[00:34:29] Yeah, someday like really when it exists not just the way it's saved there it's there it's getting better but you know this still far far from it is interesting.

[00:34:40] My my co-founder came from out of healthcare so he's been in consulting for a long time and about a year ago we were talking about. So he had to be a char integrations and and the challenges honestly that we have trying to aggregate data and he said hey.

[00:35:00] Man I think I get it if if data was flowing much more freely and it's easier and angry with the HR is I feel like that would unlock so much innovation and I was like that's that was his welcome to healthcare moment right.

[00:35:13] I think when you realize that that is a big problem. Yeah, all right so in what ways do you think that healthcare organizations and BPOs can collaborate more effectively because.

[00:35:29] You know there is a burden in my opinion on you know every healthcare organization and and gathering touched it a little bit that.

[00:35:37] She seemed to be open with the idea of like yeah you come up with take away that burden you have the what needs to make it delightful for the members and deliver on the promise of the service so I would like to hear.

[00:35:50] Frederick first year view and then this time go back to Catherine let's start with you on this one first.

[00:35:58] Yeah, I think the I think there's a few things that we see working with what makes what made it and what makes a successful relationship with with our clients and where we see challenges I think in general if you take a step back.

[00:36:20] We believe that most of these relationships between organizations and any type of external BPO vendors should move from should move to an outcome space pricing model at the end of the day.

[00:36:35] There's this inherent tension between any type of BPO company that sells seeds or ft's or everything want to name it and I'll make this quick then I think it's moving to a shared outcome space pricing where.

[00:36:51] It's really about paying for a successfully a resolve member interaction a successfully handled eligibility check the successfully books appointment right whatever matters to the organization because that gives.

[00:37:05] A lot of room and shared incentives to focus on optimizing against the end output as opposed to optimizing against the input which is what. Is the foundation of most pricing and vendor relationships between BPO organizations and and their clients.

[00:37:24] I think that is for me the essence because then you create a foundation where you can partner around evolving processes transforming processes right and and for that you.

[00:37:36] It needs to be enough freedom and enough incentives for any type of the specialized vendor to have enough control of the process in order to. Work on one transforming it and future. future.

[00:37:51] So for me I think that's been where there's the best discussions when when it's really aligning the business incentives around a shared goal and then the BPO organization having enough space to innovate a process and leverage their specialized expertise and technology. Okay, can I do.

[00:38:13] No, I mean I think Frederick makes a lot of good points I think you know this shared savings model kind of what we often see in.

[00:38:22] You know quality base care so I work for landmark health which was one of the United States largest at home providers it was eventually bought by opt and because they were doing a shared savings.

[00:38:35] You keep this many members out of the hospital for emergency and mission and you'll get this cost back so I think a lot of times we have to make sure that there are these incentives built in that we know that we're both trending.

[00:38:48] In the same direction for the goals that we want to achieve again, whether that's a membership ball or that's number of patients schedule goal so I think that's really crucial and I think health providers health plans being more open to having BPO's come in.

[00:39:03] Being that third party perspective that can say and you guys have been doing this third and forty years but this is what we see work in other industries.

[00:39:13] I think a lot of the value you know nice speaker conferences is your in cross industry platform so we're learning the best in health care from retail from may seize from CBS.

[00:39:24] So I think that's really valuable and again just having more of an open mind to what we can achieve together. And I think also becomes part of the foundation of working together in a partnership.

[00:39:36] We often bring a BPO or even a community base organization in but we don't explain as the health plan who are we what is our mission vision and values.

[00:39:46] So I think also starting with foundation of this is who we are. This is what makes us different and this is really what you're going to be helping us achieve because I think regardless of who you are it's all about the why it's all about what are we doing that's going to impact health care in.

[00:40:02] How does that contact center agent fit into the model a lot of times like in C sweet where we know our direction we know our strategic goals but the agents may not our BPO partners may not so I think being really transparent about what we're trying to achieve together is important.

[00:40:17] I think do you think these organizations you did mention opt-on doing it are they doing it on home care side at all any of the health plans. The same value based model as in like to pay caregivers more are uncertain cases is there any organization doing that.

[00:40:41] I mean, I don't know myself of one I think you know the reason why the organizations like often are succeeding is because they would provide a model so they have an empty or do you know that seeing you at home instead of the doctor but.

[00:40:54] I think what we're going to see especially with you know new regulations coming forth and hopefully some new legislation is that we need to pay our correct care workers more so.

[00:41:04] I think that's really going to optimize the home care environment and that's one of those employee health equity issues as we know are. You know yeah yeah I do not get in the money they need to survive.

[00:41:16] Yeah exactly I also think that it's it's almost like easier to. Go with this model to on especially with home care side we're most of the caregivers are like hourly so it it very clearly makes it like you know the cases where. You have high quality.

[00:41:37] You know care delivered and you're meeting the outcome goals then the health plans can immediately say like for this case we can allocate more and the caregiver gets more money and this is actually not happening it this is what.

[00:41:49] When I was actually literally like a couple of days ago I was discussing with my founder who's the founder of this home care company that.

[00:41:57] How do we in a good world how can we bring money to the caregivers and this might be the solution to the shortage of caregivers because what happens is the money doesn't go to the.

[00:42:08] And at the bottom to the caregivers and this makes it their second or third job and this is why we have shortage but if we can have the incentive coming floating indirectly to the caregivers it creates there it makes a sustainable career as a caregiver then people will make it as their first job and then hopefully we will.

[00:42:26] And hopefully we will be on track to fight the labor shortage which we have and we can serve more people so.

[00:42:34] This is like I hope people are listening this when we posted out I want more people to talk about this and get this message more out and this is like literally discuss from help and be pure and home care three angles and how it benefits everything.

[00:42:53] So I am optimistic about this thing but I also think that it's probably happening all the on the providers side more and now the question is how does it how it can start for another part in the ecosystem as well. So great so.

[00:43:11] Now I want to go on a little personal track and conclude this with this final question. So Catherine will start with you and this is one of my favorite questions I ask pretty much all of my guests so tell us about.

[00:43:27] Of course no thing that that no one in your professional circles know about this and this is your chance to share with the world could be anything that you feel is you know appropriate to share and.

[00:43:43] But everyone in those this because I do share but I think it's helpful for your podcast viewers so a lot of 36 I had a heart attack I was 250 pounds I lost 100 pounds.

[00:43:56] And so I believe in bringing my full self to work I believe in making time so that my staff have.

[00:44:02] Even our personal development or wellness every other week they can to spend that in any way that they wish but you know when you're in your mid 30s and you have a high pressure job you never think about the fact that.

[00:44:14] You're not taking care of yourself so I think that transitions into like how I care for my team how I care for employees is that holistic perspective caring for the whole person not just caring about what they do for us, but you know also making time and weekly meetings where we just say.

[00:44:31] Hey let's chat and we're not going to talk about work that's the only role we don't talk about work we talk about their families and what they're trying to do outside of the.

[00:44:41] The organization but I think that's something I never take my health for granted anymore and that's helped me bring more of that full person perspective to what I do.

[00:44:50] Wow very powerful thanks for sharing fedric same question to you anything that no one in your professional circles knows but you would like to share it today on this show.

[00:45:06] That's a big question I'd say my wife knows this and she would laugh at me but if kind of applies to the to the work that we're doing I I sometimes ask in team building events and I say what if you were a kitchen utensil which one would you be in line it's just a nice breaker question.

[00:45:26] But I always tell everyone I'm a I'm a knife sharpener right and the reason that is is because. For me cooking and a lot of what we do in healthcare is about the journey and I just happened to enjoy cutting out of a tomato with a sharp knife.

[00:45:42] But I think that really applies to to what we're doing I think healthcare is a game of small continuous improvements.

[00:45:54] Because and I don't think there is a grand revolution to solve the problem wholesale and I think that has to be your mindset right and every tomato has to be nicely cut every patient every member has to be well served and you have to do the little things that at the end of the day add up and so.

[00:46:14] I think I think that's that's that's a tip bit about me and how are you my role in trying to make a difference in the space.

[00:46:22] Great thank you so Catherine we again people find you primarily on my LinkedIn so it's Catherine Ketter you can find me through Jefferson health plans and always happy to connect.

[00:46:39] Frederick we can people find you great I am on LinkedIn as well Frederick Mueller and you can visit us at third way at WWW third way. Thank you very much for having me back and nice to meet you.

[00:46:56] Thank you. Thank you both of you much much appreciated and thanks for your insight thanks for your valuable experiences that you've shared and I'm sure a few of the things I want to emphasize all this is.

[00:47:11] You know we are a couple of things I guess one is health care is there is a reason why we are in health care that's when I have started to feel and realize that it's it's a different kind of beast to put bluntly and but.

[00:47:31] We need more people in health care we need more ideas fresh ideas we need more perspective and we need to be more optimistic about it that's the message I would give to anyone I think I hear all the time all the negative things and it feels demoralizing that time but oh my god health care is demoralizing.

[00:47:50] To the next extent but on the flip side of it I think one of the message to this show is to feel the energy to feel the innovation to feel the positive vibes to feel the good that we are ringing to the world that's happening changing around us so fast and I hope more people will listen especially.

[00:48:10] The things that you both have said and we make it better health care together. Thank you.